Tuesday, September 19, 2006

Should India Change its Name to Bharat?

In the last four thousand years or so the Indian sub-continent has gone through a lot of names. Since the Indus Valley Civilization spanned from what is now Afghanistan and Pakistan to the heart of Madhya Pradesh there have been dozens of other civilizations and ruling dynasties. With a few glaring omissions after the Indus were the Mayurans, the Cholas, the Mughals, Hindustan, the Portuguese, the French, the British and now India's democracy. What we know as "India" today had never been united into one territory until the British seized control from hundreds of smaller kingdoms. In a standard process of succession every new leader that took control decimated the remains of the previous civilization and attempted to start a new history. And in every instance cities were dubbed with new names.

Since India gained independence from British rule the Indian government, spurred on by fundamentalist parties that originated in Mumbai, has been changing urban monikers to the "original" Hindu names. Bombay became Mumbai, Delhi - Dilli, Calcutta - Kolkotta, Madras - Chennai and as of today Pondicherry has been renamed Puducherry.

Putting new names on cities, towns and streets may be a way to lay claim to the land in some fundamental way, but calling the new name "original" has some dark undertones. When Bombay was first called Mumbai it was little more than a fishing village with a moderate sized port. When the British took control it transformed into a world economic juggernaut. Delhi grew into a prominence under several generations of Islamic rule--many of whom would have scoffed at the recent name change. What we know as the Indus Valley Civilization or Harappa was most likely called Meluha by the people at the time. The city of Pondicherry didn't even exist before the French borrowed the name of an insignificant fishing village and turned it into their center of operations in South Asia. Renaming it Puducherry is returns it to village status and ignores a rich French history.

If the trend should continue it would make sense that the entire nation of India should get a name change. After all, India was only the name that Alexander the Great (or Sikander if we want to keep up the Indianization of names) gave to all the people on the other side of the Indus River. Technically it would include most of Pakistan, India, Nepal, Bangladesh and parts of Burma...er...Myanmar.

Would it make sense to call India "Bharat" or "Hindustan"? Bharat is the Sanskrit name for the land of the Mahabarata. It carries Hindu connotations and overlooks centuries of Islamic and British rule. "Hindustan", however, was the name for British occupied India and represents the first time that the entire region existed under a single leadership. If politicians did try to rename India there would probably be riots on the streets. Every minority group in the country would feel disenfranchised--as if their own regional histories had no real stake in the nation.

But if you can't rename the country, why can you rename the cities? You cannot simply delete several millennia of non-Hindu rule from the pages of history (though they may have tried that in Gujarat). Sure, under the British many people suffered. People suffered under the Mughals, too. More people lived in poverty than palaces in the areas where there were flourishing Hindu kingdoms. How much better is the India that we know today? Has giving it a new name changed anything?

40 Comments:

At September 19, 2006 3:33 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hi Scott,

You have an interesting point there, and you are also right about the riots that will follow if it is taken up. somewhere after independence and after framing the constitution the word 'secular' has been the most mis-used word in India.

Anand.S

 
At September 19, 2006 7:32 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

> changing urban monikers to the "original" Hindu names.

the idea behind this is, to revert to the " NAME" as called by the people of the land, in their local language, before any "known" foreign occupations.
I only see it as the people of the land & their language getting precedence than religion, foreign invasions, good regime etc.,

> ignores a rich French history

Let's portray and respect the french history but not at the cost of the "language/people of the land".

We will name the land as per the language spoken there and will brand the cars to depict the foreign invasion/history. [i know the Americans do the otherway :) ]. Just kidding, there are lot of better ways to preserve the invader/foreigner's history.

> "Hindustan", however, was the name for British occupied India and represents the first time that the entire region existed under a single leadership.

As you said there is no unified country before british, so there couldn't be any "local name for the entire land". To me both the names might have been named by western historians, In that case i would prefer INDIA than Hindustan.

> delete several millennia of non-Hindu rule from the pages of history (though they may have tried that in Gujarat).
Man, you are getting the knack of indian politicians. good try though. good luck.

 
At September 19, 2006 11:37 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

There is a poll going on at Indianpad Site on the same issue. As far as regarding your statement that But if you can't rename the country, why can you rename the cities ? I feel that its feasible to change a city name depending upon which relegion has majority there and city name change doesnt affect everyone. However, changing a country's name affects every citizen ( and probably a lot of non citizens ).

 
At September 19, 2006 11:58 PM, Blogger I said...

There is no tangible reason as to why should India be one country. As you pointed out, it was the British that brought about a common administrative unit called thus. It was a wave of strong-arm cultural, political and linguistic imperialism that resulted in contemporary "India".

The pretense of Indian nationality lies with "Hinduism". It's this relegion - "way of life"- that was supposedly practised all over South East Asia, till 1000 years ago.

 
At September 20, 2006 4:05 AM, Blogger AMODINI said...

Changing names or contemplating changing names (of cities/countries)is a non-issue and the biggest waste of time and resources (resources which are scarce and should be better used)I can think of. Such an excercise is best left to the nincompoops in the government who can apparently think of no better way of asserting their "patriotism". All this hogwash of remembering past glory - how easy it would be if a name change could alleviate all the ills of modern India.

 
At September 20, 2006 6:52 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I dont support the recent city name changes in India. But your reasons for this are flawed.

>> What we know as "India" today had never been united into one territory until the British seized control from hundreds of smaller kingdoms. In a standard process of succession every new leader that took control decimated the remains of the previous civilization and attempted to start a new history. And in every instance cities were dubbed with new names.

At that point of time there is no concept called country anywhere in the earth. Only kingdoms and their size based on King and his army's prowess. But the place now called as India shared the same culture. Even Dravidian language like Tamil had Ramayana and Mahabharata books/scriptures for long time.

>>Since India gained independence from British rule the Indian government, spurred on by fundamentalist parties that >>originated in Mumbai, has been changing urban monikers to the "original" Hindu names. Bombay became Mumbai, Delhi - Dilli, Calcutta - Kolkotta, Madras - Chennai and as of today Pondicherry has been renamed Puducherry.
You are trying to protray these names as Hindu names, but actually it is not. These names were city name in the local language. Madras is known as Chennai and Pondicherry is called Puducherry in Tamil for long time. I dont know how u find these local names as Hindu names. Do remember except Mumbai, all the other cities name is changed by so called rationalist/atheist parties like DMK, Communist and Congress. When did Delhi's name got changed ?

>>Putting new names on cities, towns and streets may be a way to lay claim to the land in some fundamental way, but calling the new name "original" has some dark undertones. When Bombay was first called Mumbai it was little more than a fishing village with a moderate sized port. When the British took control it transformed into a world economic juggernaut. Delhi grew into a prominence under several generations of Islamic rule--many of whom would have scoffed at the recent name change.
I find this one funny. Bombay developed due to its people not because of its name. Ya British regime brought industrialization. But that doesnot mean that British regime is the only reason for India's current economy status. India would have industrialized by some other means if not by British.


>>The city of Pondicherry didn't even exist before the French borrowed the name of an insignificant fishing village and turned it into their center of operations in South Asia. Renaming it Puducherry is returns it to village status and ignores a rich French history.

Cities will get developed based on the oppurtunities available there. May be Pondicherry would have been a small town if it is not occupied by French. But who cares ?

>>Would it make sense to call India "Bharat" or "Hindustan"?
Bharat was named after the King Bharatha who ruled India earlier not because of land of Mahabharata. Even now in Hindi, India is called Bharat. Try listening to All India Radio/DD Hindi news or even private Hindi news channels.

 
At September 20, 2006 8:54 AM, Blogger dazedandconfused said...

Scott,

You make a couple of very simplistic generalizations in this post and I agree with 'anonymous' responses.

Couple of quick points. India existed as a country even before the British. Am not a historian but I definitely know that under Ashoka and even Akbar most of what we know as india existed even then. Plus nation states or countries as we call them today is relatively a modern concept.

Plus your claim of 'people suffered under the British but they also suffered under the Mughals' is fallacious. While the British regime was exploitative and any benefits were incidental, the Mughal period in India was extremely assimilative in many spheres.

I would recommend Amarthya Sen's book, 'The Argumentative Indian' to you for a better understanding of Indian culture and history. Its well written, analytical and you might find it interesting, if not enlightening.

Keep it coming though. I enjoy your posts!

 
At September 20, 2006 9:32 AM, Blogger Scott Carney said...

I will let other commenters address the criticisms you have of my post, but I do have a few quick notes.

1) If you want to go way back, Delhi's original name was Indraprastha. That's right out of the Mahabarata and B.B. Lal, a renowned archaeologist excavated the remains of it. There was nothing in the area before then. Some might argue that the actual location is slightly outside the metropolitain limits of modern day Delhi.

2)To the point that India shares a single "culture". Is that why there are hundreds of dialects, five language families and no fewer than four separatist movements going on right now? Besides, saying that Indians all shared the Mahabarata in the past is frightfully close to the Shiv Sena argument that all Indian muslims are really Hindu.

3) There is no indigenous term for religion in Sanskrit. The word "Hindu" is a foreign label brought by invaders. "Dharma" is the closest and it evokes duty rather than separate categorical religions.

4) The whole idea of "Original" has more to do with politics than it does with history. The point of my post was that India is ignoring the process of history and looking for some pure beginning that is all India. India as we know it is an amalgamation peoples, languages, histories and cultures. That is what makes India great.

 
At September 20, 2006 11:18 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Delhi has not been renamed to Dilli. It's name remains Delhi. Dilli is what it is called in Hindi/Punjabi

 
At September 20, 2006 11:45 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wow....though provoking comments from all bloggers...Keep it going!

Joydeep Saha

 
At September 20, 2006 11:52 AM, Blogger I said...

>>>While the British regime was exploitative and any benefits were incidental, the Mughal period in India was extremely assimilative in many spheres>>>

Duh. The mughals raped, plundered and pillaged at will. Barring a few exceptions, British rule was far more civilized.

If not for Great Britain, "India" would still be in the stone ages. Whether or not it was intentional is really beside the point.

And..

Ashoka did not come much South of the Vindhyas, if at all. The Mughals never ruled the region now called Tamil Nadu. Both the Mauryas' and Mughals' empires stretched well into the present day Afghanistan. Er..so? It was the British that brought "India" (South + North) under a common umbrella. It's hard to define "India" but by consistency it was a name for British colonies in South Asia. (Burma was "India" till the 1930s. Kashmir, Sikkim or Nepal were not originally "India" because it was not really ruled by the Brits).

Goa was not "India" till the 1961 invasion (there were two failed invasion before that)because it was a Portugese territory. Unlike the French, the Portugese did not cede their land. A new word - Union Territory- had to be coined to amalgamate non-British held territories into post 8/15/47- India. Sikkim was annexed by Indira Gandhi after an armed invasion.

"India" did not become one country by a democratic or representative process. Like say the United States (starting 1776) or Canada (starting about 100 years later). It was by political strong-arm approaches.

 
At September 20, 2006 3:33 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I, your history is flawed. USA did not exactly come across by democratic process either. If I recall correctly, there was a civil war there...That's hardly a 'democractic process'

 
At September 20, 2006 9:09 PM, Blogger I said...

Anon, this is a brainfart. Learn to read before you read history. The real one, not the revesioned Indian version.

 
At September 21, 2006 1:52 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

It is VERY MUCH necessary to change our country's name from India to BHARAT. The name India came from the Britishers, these people still hate us to the core because of complextion. No one would like if they are call by some other name which is kept by your parents with great honour or change their sername or religion. Britishers kept the name India as they considered us as we are same as Red Indians who bearley were clothes and follow no culture, however we are much better than them and the west. They say proudly British rule rise from the east and sets in the west. ITS THE TIME NOW TO PROVE THEM their rule was only in west and not in east thats our motherland. There is no discrimination between religion but learn this is yr land YOUR OWN HOME. OUR COUNTRY IS MUCH MUCH MORE POWERFUL THAN ANY NATION its only the politions who are not less than a pimp. Our Politions will even sell YOU ur FAMILY for thier benefit. Learn from history it should not be repeated again. BE PROUD OF UR SELF that ur born on this land. WE ALL BHARTIYA are the best than any nation on earth. Dont give up your RIGHTS, Dont loose your image.
JAI HIND

 
At September 21, 2006 8:07 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

>> 1) If you want to go way back, Delhi's original name was Indraprastha.
You have misunderstood my question. I asked when Delhi's name was changed to Dilli like they changed city name from Madras to Chennai ?

>> 2)To the point that India shares a single "culture". Is that why there are hundreds of dialects, five language families and no fewer than four separatist movements going on right now? Besides, saying that Indians all shared the Mahabarata in the past is frightfully close to the Shiv Sena argument that all Indian muslims are really Hindu.

Indian languages either derive from Sanskrit or Tamil. These are the mother languages of other Indian languages. Dialects depends on the region where people live. These changes eventually lead to a creation of new language over a period of time. This is more common in the ancient days because communication of people were difficult. There is a remote chance of this happenning now because of excellent communication facilites, so any changes to a language would be propagated if everybody agreed or opposed if people disagrees. Even now Chennai Tamil has a different dialect than Madurai Tamil or Nagercoil Tamil. So your argument that differnt languages cant have a same culture doesnt make sense.

As per history, Muslims came to India after the Ghazni and Mughal invansion. Except Syrian christians and St Thomas, little historical evidence for the presence of Christianity in India before British occupation. So till 10th century people shared the same culture/religion throughout India and neighbouring countries. Show me any proof/literature about the presence of Chistianity/Islam in India before this.

>> 3) There is no indigenous term for religion in Sanskrit. The word "Hindu" is a foreign label brought by invaders. "Dharma" is the closest and it evokes duty rather than separate categorical religions.
I am not talking about the origins of the word "Hindu". People shared the culture and eventually that become a religion with some local flavour attached to it. Even now ppl in South India worship Lord Muruga/Subramanya Swamy but you wont find that god in North India. So does this makes Hindu religion different in North and South India ? Hinduism is more a Pagan religion unlike Christianity or Islam.


>>4) The whole idea of "Original" has more to do with politics than it does with history. The point of my post was that India is ignoring the process of history and looking for some pure beginning that is all India.
Ya it is more to do with politics than the history. As I said earlier I am also oppose the idea of changing the names of the cities. It doesnt make any practical sense. But my point is people of a city has the rights to change its name if the majority agrees to it.

 
At September 21, 2006 8:35 AM, Blogger I said...

Anon, what is exactly "culture" or "life"? If regions with same relegions/cultures are should be the same country, Latin America/Europe should be one? S.America even shared the same culture of bana republics and mass starvation. Plus they are all catholic. Well, almost.

"Ancient India" was never one political unit before at least 1857. A million years ago there were no nations or borders, does that mean all the world is now one country?

In 1947 not all people wanted to unify under this "India" brand. But then, what people think is never really an issue reg India.(The nizam of Hyderabad, ppl of Kashmir, the entire N.East etc etc etc). It was Vallabhai's imperialism, North Indian colonialization and Indhi imposition that led to the present India.

So just go wild when Tendulkar hits a century against bangladesh. Indian nationalism starts and ends there.

 
At September 21, 2006 9:00 AM, Blogger Scott Carney said...

1) Happily, I was wrong. Delhi has not yet changed its name. It might be coming, though.

2)There are five language families spoken in India. Dravidian based languages like Tamil, Indo-European languages like Hindi, Punjabi, Sanskrit and English (yes Hindi and english are related), Austo-Asiatic languages like Munda, Tibeto-Burman languages like Tibetan and Ladakhi and Andamanese languages spoken only on the Andanam Islands. Every one of those language families breaks down into languages that you are more familiar with (like Tamil and Hindi) which again have lots of dialects. The Indian constitution acknowledges 22 distinct languages. One linguistics account I read said it changes every 40 kilometers.

3) I think your reading of culture is a bit skewed. Do Indians and Pakistanis share the same culture? Did they before 1947? If so then what is the difference between culture and state? Do Tamil Bhramins and Punjabi Sikhs have the same culture? What are the sililarities that bind all Indians together? Stating that all Indians share a culture that is eternal neglects the fact that people are always changing. It's a very squishy word.

Hinduism IS different in North and South India. In fact, some people would argue that it isn't even the same religion. As you yourself said it is more pagan than centralized. There are no single authorities who unite the faith.

4) No one is saying that people don't have the right to change names of city's states or countries. That's fine. The question is what happens when they do. But I don't think it is an issue of simple majority. For instance if a majority of people in Boston (in the USA) decided to change it's name to "Kill-all-the-Niggers-Ville" it doesn't mean that they should. Name changes should occur after a prolongued debate where everyone is involved, not just people in Shiv Sena and it's derivative parties.

 
At September 21, 2006 10:45 PM, Blogger Scott Carney said...

So you are saying that India has culture, but Pakistan doesn't? And what about all those Hindus who go off and kill muslims and sikhs (Gujarat 2001 and the fall out of operation blue star)? Is that what you call "acceprance of any path"? And while India hasn't lost too much territory since its inception (areas of kashmir and regions bordering china have been reported missing) there have been some pretty nasty separatist movements that weren't resolved democratically, rather they were resolved at the point of a gun.

But this line of conversation is getting quite off topic. I will do another post about this later.

Should India change its name to Bharat (or Madras to Chennai) based on some notion of a unified sanskritic culture or should it accept that the greatness of the nation lies in its unique, if twisted, history.

 
At September 23, 2006 11:03 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Only one minor quibble and one minor comment.

Quibble: Madras to Chennai is anything but a 'sanskritization' -- much more an affirmation of TAMIL culture and identity. Ask about the anti-Hindi riots in the mid-sixties sometime...or about the (more widespread than one might think) lingering attachment to the idea of a Tamil state encompassing current TN, Kerala, parts of Karnatica and AP, and of course Sri Lanka.

Comment: to all posters, barring access to one of the many fine lexicons, wikipedia is your friend, as a quick perusal of the term 'hindustan' might have revealed.

 
At September 23, 2006 6:53 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

>>>>>>So you are saying that India has culture, but Pakistan doesn't?

dont think anybody said that..., what are u trying to do and say and more importantly achieve ?

if ur idea is winning an arguement on something ( the topic being discussed ) that has absolutely no practical implications and dwells in a utopian domain....: then that's fine.., it's dumb, but rational thinking is not a pre-requisite.

>>>>>Should India change its name to Bharat (or Madras to Chennai) based on some notion of a unified sanskritic culture or should it accept that the greatness of the nation lies in its unique, if twisted, history.

understand that there cant be a unified sanskrit culture.., the dravidians ( atleast not all ) subscribe to it..

please dont try and stake a claim to understanding the dichotomy that many in house experts are still debating on..

my question however is " whats the underlying motive behind the choice of topics especially on India? " I don't mean this in a derogatory way.., but i'm really intrested to know

 
At September 23, 2006 7:41 PM, Blogger Scott Carney said...

Dear Anon...I mean Vatsan (your inability to spell betrays you)

Perhaps I misunderstood part of what Sundararaman had said, he wasn't talking about Pakistan not havin ga culture, just that it seems united where India doesn't. I still don't agree with that statement though. He still misuses the idea of culture in his posts.

Motivation for my topics? The things that interest me, that is all. If you look to the top of my blog, I write about the world outside my window. My window is in India. I also have spent a great deal of time writing and researching this country in both academic and non-academic settings. I am not sure what your "in house experts" might be able to tell you that would completely override an outsider's viewpoint. But maybe if you could introduce me to one we could have long fruitful discussions.

 
At September 23, 2006 10:30 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Scott,

am the anon who made the comment on your motives..and the name's Venkat ; Thank you very much.

notice your super sensory powers for deducting bad spellings is in place and functional..i'll run a spell check now that I understand it's necessary..

anyways.., u'r fundamentally flawed in saying that Sanskrit can be a common base for all Indians.., please google about the Dravidian culture before we can even fathom a reasonable discussion..

i'll think i'll give the spell check a skip anyways..;-)

 
At October 21, 2006 6:17 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Scott you have omitted several things to make an arguement which seems quite silly at best.
Ashoka had prior to brits kept the dimensions the same(with the exception of tamilnad)
And NO next generation of conquerers
(prior to islam) did not try to wipe previous folks civilization in india.
Kushan empire came into india and it was syncretic, it did not destroy previous architecture....
Greeks were similar in that sense.
The likes of Ghazni, BinQasim Sabuktagin Babar ghouri were plunderes.
The british came to india for that reason.
And Frankly it is upto the people to call themselves what they want to be known as.
No one bitched about wiemar republic, prussia, germany.
In reality US should consider what to do with the names of towns in southwest that were changed to remove too much spanish influences.
And what about the native names prior to that....
and what about new amsterdam....

To Annon who tells me about checking dravidian language hell most of it has had longer contact with sankstrit than prakrat has had with urdu.
What is the roots of mr karunanidhis name?

 
At November 10, 2006 3:52 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Scott,

From the writing and the comments that you made, its very hard to distinguish whether you are indian or foreigner from West. What is your interest in knowing whether India should change its name? Because the question leads to the same culture and historical discussion that ends up whenever any historical question about India is asked. No matter what question you ask, this same discussion will follow.

* We have got enough problems on our plate before we change country's name to 'Bhaarat'.
- problem of language
- problem of unity in religions
- problem of politicization of castes and reservation
- problem of uplifting poors
- problem of eradicating leftist influence from history
- etc.

* In such time, changing name to 'bhaarat', would bring a political divide and nothing else.
* The culture has three things
- Way of Life (Caste System, Brahmcharyashram, Gruhasthashram, Vaanprashtha & Sanyas)
- Way of Thinking (Life after death - Rebirth)
- Way of Worship (Idol Worship)

You will see how all three are more or less same in various parts of the Country. And earlier period you go, more unity there was in this culture and later period it was disintegrated for obvious reasons of invasion. Once a country goes through difficulties it falls apart that is true for all nations on earth. It's just a wonder of the world that when Britishers left India in 567 pieces it got United without any major war.


Consider what happened in Europe or Middle East over time and again - even though their religion is same - they are not under one political umbrella.

History is history, no benefit just praising that if you don't prove it in present. Let India come on its own. It will!

Scott, if you are curious for India and trying to understand, welcome! if you are just another critique, good bye.

 
At August 08, 2007 12:05 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

The country is already being referred as Bharat in all local languages including urdu. It is India only for the outside world and English media.

Deepak

 
At August 12, 2007 7:57 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Scott, you're just another white western elitist, you have no idea what is is like to have your country and their ancestors ruled by pigs. The pigs pillaged and sucked India's resources and riches for hundreds of years. All of their resources were mailed back to London and Birmingham nothing was shared with the Indian people. Since you are a pig, why don't you just stuff a goddamn apple in your mouth and stop spewing your slop ignorance all over the web.

 
At August 12, 2007 1:42 PM, Blogger Scott Carney said...

Are you saying that can find me a good price on apples?

 
At November 07, 2007 6:15 PM, Blogger भारत गर्ग said...

Its high Time we do this..!Bharat Pronounced as भारत !
why are we always late?
http://www.petitiononline.com/banindia/petition.html

 
At December 14, 2007 3:42 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

>>>>>>>>>>>Putting new names on cities, towns and streets may be a way to lay claim to the land in some fundamental way, but calling the new name "original" has some dark undertones. When Bombay was first called Mumbai it was little more than a fishing village with a moderate sized port. When the British took control it transformed into a world economic juggernaut. Delhi grew into a prominence under several generations of Islamic rule--many of whom would have scoffed at the recent name change. What we know as the Indus Valley Civilization or Harappa was most likely called Meluha by the people at the time. The city of Pondicherry didn't even exist before the French borrowed the name of an insignificant fishing village and turned it into their center of operations in South Asia. Renaming it Puducherry is returns it to village status and ignores a rich French history.>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Rome was not built in a day. Likewise cities are. They start as villages and evolve into city depend on the facilities it got. Your remarks about this are so weird. You are talking as if those cities would be still villages.

>>>>>>>>>>You cannot simply delete several millennia of non-Hindu rule from the pages of history (though they may have tried that in Gujarat). Sure, under the British many people suffered. People suffered under the Mughals, too. More people lived in poverty than palaces in the areas where there were flourishing Hindu kingdoms. How much better is the India that we know today? Has giving it a new name changed anything?>>>>>>>>>>>

If it didnot change anything, why did French, British, Mughals etc... changed the names before. You should pose this question to them first ?


But nice remarks and good to kill time.

 
At April 10, 2008 12:16 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

This article is totaly Meaningless. If do not know the reality, it's better to keep mum. If Burma and Cylone changed their names, then why not India become Bharat which is already there in our constitution.So far Kolkotta, Channai, Mumbai, Bengaluru and so on are successfully changed. Have anybody noticed roits on street. The author is trying to bully Indian public. Its important to know following points.
1. Parents have first right to name their kids, not their neighbors or some europiens.
2. In real Indians are not at all changing any names. They are just correcting names, which existed before. Changing of names has done by Moghals and Europiens. Indians are trying to correct mistakes done by Moghals and Europiens by correcting the names.
3. If they do not know how to pronounce the name properly, it's their problem, let them learn.
4. After all, Indians are not trying to change the names of London or New York.
Then why so serious about this.

 
At May 02, 2008 5:30 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Madras is always Madras, no matter whoever changes it or calls it otherwise.

Changes are so much irritating and make life more difficult . I always say Madras as I'm used to from childhood but people around me frown as I've uttered some obscene word.

Well, If you don't like british names or anything done by british then, why do you still celebrate Jan 1st as New year? We have seperate Tamil New Year right? Why don't you destroy the high courts, railway tracks constructed by british & reconstruct from the start? Sounds stupid right... Same way, It sounds stupid to change from Madras to Chennai when both co-existed without any problem. Now , only Chennai exists . where's my magnificent Madras? My DOB Certificate lists it as Madras. A'm I born in a city which does not exist? These changes promote regionalism & not nationalism… which will ultimately result in a separate Country ThamizlNadu(Once known as the State of Madras).

Don't know where will it End?

 
At May 26, 2008 3:09 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Scott...
U don't have any rights to say like this..
R u an indian to ask this..

how could u say that there is no culture in india?
just come and stay here for some days..
u may come to know..

You just highlighted the points like godra riots in gujarath.
but what about other riots..
do u know how many hindu people are died in terrorist attacks.why didn,t u tell about that?
of course i am not supporting godra riots..
just think and write before u write

 
At August 24, 2008 2:42 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

dear Scott,

Like many responding to your uneducated guesses rather than article, I too am tempted to mention a few things, but waht's the point of flogging a dead horse. Either you are dummber than you think, or you think dummber than you are. Anyway, what's the point? but I have summed you up in a single word. Idiot!

 
At November 14, 2008 11:16 AM, Blogger Unknown said...

As per the past history the name India is given by Britishers and their total aim was to destroy our cultural heritage. The names such as Calcutta, Bombay represent the colonized bharat so they have been amended. A huge difference exists between Bharat and India, the former considers the whole India while the later reflects a mere part i.e. north India as the word Bharat is taken from Sanskrit which is the mother of all the European languages.
The name Bharat is given by ancient Indian scholars when India has a glorious past and the Europe had no existence.
Before Bharat the name of India was aryadesh but due to its religious nature our ancient scholars had replaced the same with Bharat. The name is given when India is enriched in terms of development of economy, technology and defense weapons.

The main reason of making India the international name is the psychological pressure of British on us. Traditional language should reflect in the country’s national name. Does Srilankans not change their name from Ceylon to Srilanka when they became the republic in 1972?
Thus in order to respect our mother, Sanskrit’ it should be our effort that in our usual conversation and discussions we should use the word BHARAT instead of INDIA.


A true Patriot

 
At December 05, 2009 1:38 AM, Blogger Aakash Polra said...

Scott, let's say your boss can't pronounce your name right and calls you xxx. You worked for him for half of your life, will you change your name to xxx?
You should, not to remove your history for working with him for so many years.
Same kind of deal here.

 
At February 03, 2010 10:45 PM, Blogger shaan said...

Hi Scott, Interesting perspective, I have something to add. "What we know as "India" today had never been united into one territory until the British seized control from hundreds of smaller kingdoms" - This is not true. Even the British ruled only 60% of India. The rest 40% were under independent rulers who had treaty relationship with the British. So even the British did not unite India. In fact India is just one political entity much like the way in which the EU is moving forward. A union of different cultures and states. However the word India was used to indicate all of India from the Himalayas to Pakistan to the southern tip, by the Greeks even before thousands of years.

Greeks had Greek names for Indian cities and rivers. For example, Hydaspes for the Jhelum river. What the British did was different they just anglicised Indian names - like dilli to delhi, and Mumbai which was named as Bombai by the Portuguese and then adopted as Bombay by the British and Kolkatta was prounounced as Calcutta. But the natives of these regions continued to pronounce these names as they always had throughout the British rule and after. Now the anglicised names have been removed and the original names restored even in English. This is the only change. Westerners feel insecure because their memories of the Indian subcontinent gets blurred when someone renames a city in India. In a way memories of their superiority gets faded. That is the reason for many Westerners to protest this kind of name change in erstwhile colonies. But they fail to realize that the colonial history of these nations are just like a tiny blip when compared to their thousands of years old civilizations which have survived several invasions.

A name change in the Western world does not attract much criticism as a name change in a former colony. Vir Singhvi writes "The Iranians used to be annoyed when Winston Churchill insisted on referring to their country as Persia. Now, as the expatriate Iranian comedian Omid Djalili has noted, anybody who talks about Persia might as well also refer to Mesopotamia and Assyria". It is evident that Western criticism about issues in the other parts of the world mostly come from a lack of information/knowledge.

However I don't agree with the proposal for a name change from India to Bharat because already officially it is called as Bharat in Hindi and that is the word even printed in an Indian's passport. There is no need to remove the name India just because the British called it so. Those who call for removing the name India just possess the inverse of the western psyche, they want to erase memories of India's colonial history. They fail to understand that it was the Greeks who first called it as India even before 2 thousand years and not the British who came 300 years ago.

 
At February 09, 2010 1:24 AM, Blogger Scott Carney said...

It has been a while since I studied this, but I'm pretty sure that the Greeks called the area beyond the Saraswati river (now just a dry riverbed) "Hind", not "India". They definitely didn't have a term for the whole of India as it exists now since they never explored the whole continent. Alexander barely made it into Gujarat. (though yes, there are traces of Greek influence as far as Varanasi and Mamallapuram) And regardless, it doesn't matter what the Greeks thought as they were outsiders, just like the English later. India was never a single unified political entity until 1947.

The issue with renaming India is not about "westerners feeling insecure" about their colonial past as much as it is about Indians feeling insecure about the unitedness of the country as a whole. Like you say, India is sort of like the EU, with a mish-mash of cultures, languages, and economic systems. The name changing game is just a way for aspiring power-brokers to play identity politics.

 
At February 10, 2010 12:48 PM, Blogger shaan said...

Hi Scott, It was the Persians who called India as Hind, a corruption of the word Sind. Greeks called it as India. Refer this etymology dictionary. Greece was also similar to India at the time, a country and people commonly called Greece and the Greeks but comprising of many small kingdoms and republics. India was also a country and people commonly called as India and Indians but comprising of many small and big kingdoms and occasional republics.

I did not said that the West is insecure about their past. I said they are insecure about their future. So they feel further insecure when their memories of imperialism are erased with the renaming of cities in erstwhile colonies.

Cities which were called the same for thousands of years were renamed by the British to suit their tongue. Is it wrong to rename them back to their original names? Anyway the decisions to rename were not done by autocratic fascist regimes but by a democracy through democratic means. It is the will of the local people that must prevail. I don't have to call my own town as 'tranquebar' instead of tharangambadi or 'tuticorin' instead of thoothukudi. The English names are tongue twisters for me just as the local names are tongue twisters for the English/Westerners. Why should I call my town in your language? Will you accept if I insist that you call 'New York' as 'niyu york' as we call it in our language? Or will an Englishman accept if we insist on calling 'England' as 'Ingilaandhu' as we have been calling ever since we came into contact with them? The West must respect the right of Indians to take our own decisions, respect our sovereignty and shed their paternalistic attitude.

 
At February 10, 2010 7:18 PM, Blogger Scott Carney said...

@Shaan: Thanks for the correction. India is indeed a Greek name.

The thing about names is that they are always come from somewhere else. Think about Benaras, which is a Hindi name. It is also Varanasi, in Sanskrit and was called Kashi in old texts. Why settle on one name at all? What politics would go to choosing one name over another?

Bombay, for instance, was a small village with a medium sized temple and a well known as Mumbai when the British arrived. They made it into Bombay and the city grew into one of the world's largest metropolises. Mumbai was nothing, Bombay is great. Why change the name when everyone who made the city--mostly Indians--called it Bombay?

Most people who live in Bombay consider the name change an abomination. The same way that people who grew up in Madras hate calling the city Chennai.

 
At February 12, 2010 6:43 PM, Blogger shaan said...

Because once upon a time Mumbai was nothing, does it become nothing again if it is renamed from Bombay to Mumbai?

Your comment about people who grew up in Madras hating the name change to Chennai is partially correct, because even when it was called as Madras, officially it was called as Chennai in Tamil but people did not expect the name change when it was done. Initially there was a fear that brand Madras would get affected. But now brand Chennai is in fact better than brand Madras due to the progress the city has made in recent times. Everybody used to associate the Marina beach and the stinking Cooum river with Madras but today its software companies and shopping areas come to the top of the mind. Though the Marina is now better and the Cooum is still stinking.

But you cannot say the same about Mumbai because the name change from Bombay to Mumbai was one of the poll promises the Shiv Sena made before the elections to the council. People voted for them and they did the name change. So there is no point in saying that people didn't like it. There may be a minority who don't like it but the Marathis and Gujarathis who form the majority of the city would have no issue with it as they have been always calling it as Mumbai even after it was renamed to Bombay.

You have to read that article by Vir Singhvi in which he has pointed out that New York City was once known as New Amsterdam. Will you accept if somebody calls New York as New Amsterdam? When that is not an issue why are Bombay to Mumbai and Madras to Chennai issues?

 

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